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mel239
mel239

TLE or PNES?

I am a 45 yr old female with 8 kids and am currently living with my boyfriend.I have the usual stress and have been on disability from work for a year now.I had a mild stroke and my recovery was slow.Four months after I knew something was wrong. I have the classic  seizures{SP ANDCP}Bad smells,dread feeling etc..but lately mine have turned into shadows,voices,false memories,missing bits of time,being in other rooms or outside,senses are very overwhelming,repeating silly phrases,intrusive thoughts,talking nonstop but bouncing to other topics,hallucinations,other psychotic behaviourthat I even believed and told people my house was haunted because I didnt want to be locked away or lose my kids.After a sleep deprived eeg,I got a phone call that I was to go see an epileptologist at Cleveland Clinic the very next day.I was told they found abnormalIII{awake,asleep,anterior temporal electrodes} sharp wave activity.After a few medications didnt solve the problem I was admitted to a VEEG for 7 days. I had one event when I was on the phone and my lips and tongue got numb and stiff and everybody felt far away and the phone fell.I was told I had NES,given 600mg lyrica and sent home.So,do I no longer have epilepsy? After this background,my important question is...before I filled the scrip for lyrica,I had my son drive me to the bank where I closed all my acct and reopened new ones{for no reason}and then almost drowned in the tub. I HAVE ZERO MEMORY OF ANY OF THESE EVENTS!  We are talking hours 1  So what does this fall under epilepsy or nes?My impression of nes were that the seizures were quite physical and grand most of the time--I have none of that What causes a highly recommended doctor to be so positive about epilepsy and then change his mind?I wis my TRUE seizures had happened during veeg SO..should I go the psych route,go back to my doc,or just forgo trouble and expense and live with my problem?

By mel239 at Sun, 06/14/2009 - 10:05pm | 119 views | 7 comments

Recent Comments on this Discussion

Hey there, mel239.  I hope you are doing and feeling better these days and that you have gotten the help you need.

If ya ask me, and you aren't, but I'll share with you anyway ;) there is nothing "usual" about the stress you're living under every day. 

We did not evolve as humans to live in isolated households. There truly were villages taking care of children.

 You deserve help.  If the medical route hasn't been working so great for you, then see a counselor for a while and find out if that helps you at all. 

I am wishing you all the best!

 ~ Pamus, in the Heart of Texas 

Pamus

We know so little about the human brain, and even less about the mind.

Each scientist has a hand on a different part of the elephant.  No one gets the whole picture because it is unfathomable.

My body started doing weird stuff in early December, 2009.  Heart felt like it was in a vise; my balance was off kilter; was having difficulty with short term memory deficit. I decided to see a doctor; not a normal course of action for me because I am uninsured and generally in good health and would rather not support the health care industry's ludicrous cost structure.  Long story short, I go see a neurologist. Spend thousand of dollars on all sorts of tests from blood work to MRIs and EMGs.  Finally, the EEG. It comes back abnormal, a disturbance in the left temporal lobe.  His diagnosis? Epilepsy, TLE.

The neurologist presribed Carbamazepine, which was the worst Rx for me. Caused terrible head aches (until then, I never fully appreciated what people meant when they said they had a head ache) and gave me a mouth full of sores. Within two weeks, the Rx was affecting blood counts. Worse is that the seizures were also increasing in intensity and frequency, occurring back-to-back. Head aches were awful. I no longer recognized myself. The voice was not mine. I could not move like me. I was behaving emotionally and irrationally. I had great difficulty with simple calculations. My greatest fear was that I could be rendered permanently impaired.

I complained to the neurologist, "I feel like my brain is pushing me out!" He then switched Rx to Keppra. That was a big no-no. Did he not know? Did the pharmacist not know what I later learned after basic research?  Keppra increases the toxicity of Carbamazepine. So, there I was, getting broker, looking like a short circuiting C-3P0, and getting sticker shock every time I had to pay for meds with the VISA credit card --the All American Life Insurance Policy.  Meanwhile, seizures were worse than ever. Fewer and fewer "inter-ictal" periods. I call them WINDOWS, periods when I am seizure free.

SEEK SECOND OPINION  I really wanted to go off the meds. The second neurologist helped me titrate off the shit.  That was almost one week ago. For about 72 hours after last dose (500 mg Keppra), seizures continued unabated.  Then, suddenly, it was like crossing a threshold.  Things aren't perfect, but way better.

It was not so effective, of course, to seek this second opinion while suffering from IATROGENIC seizures. They were induced by meds AND did not at all resemble what first compelled me to seek help. So be it.  Given my history and his take on the EEG, the second neurologist does not believe I have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy, but that the seizures are psychogenic.

WHAT'S MY POINT?  For the brain, and the body, a seizure is a seizure. Before I even saw a general practitioner, what was happening to me physically and cognitively so impaired me that it was terrifying. And I do not scare easy.  Getting the initial diagnosis of TLE was somewhat surprising. "Who'd a thunk it!" The more I learned about epilepsy, however, the more i realized that the medical world realizes how little it knows every time someone somewhere makes a new discovery. 

TLE is a huge catch-all diagnosis. So, if we don't know the etiology, how can we possibly treat the seizures effectively?  

Over the past 50 years of my life here on Planet earth, my brain has experienced plenty of trauma, physically, mentally, and chemically.  I urge you to take the time to learn about how the brain processes emotions, especially the amygdala when stressed. You'll learn that "mere emotions" can hit us as hard a sledge hammer and cause as much damage. 

PSYCHOGENIC does not mean that you "made it all up"!  Psychogenic means that if I want to recover, then I need to be far more AWARE of what I am doing and what affects me.  Stress is a killer. Fact.  My game plan?  Reduce stress. Reaffirm the meaningful connections in my life. I already lead a healthy life, very active physically, tight network of friends. I do not drink or do drugs, though I did spend years of my life struggling with alcoholism, which for me is really another from of mental illness.  A "mentally healthy" alcoholic is not going to self-destruct by choosing to drink or by abusing substances or by "self-medicating" for relief.  By the age of nine, I was using alcohol and pills to find relief.  And believe me, it wasn't TLE that was causing such deep anguish back then. And while I may, as a child, have experienced what could have been diagnosed as partial seizures or even complex partial seizures, who's to know what provoked it? 

 To HEAL means to BE WHOLE.  For me, the seizures -- both psychogenic and iatrogenic -- so fragmented my life that they reduced me to the threat of being permanently invalidated.  That is not the life I want or choose.  

It is very important to prevent the seizures, whatever their cause, from grooving their own
neural network in the brain.
Prevent that pattern from establishing. When I feel a seizure coming on, I counteract it by doing the Samba. It works for me. Who knows? Maybe it's comic relief. Clearly, my body does better when I keep moving.

HELP YOUR MEMORY WORK  To help me remember stuff when the short term memory is less reliable, I say aloud what it is I need to know while doing something physical. For example, I will repeat "I took my vitamin today!" or "I must mail the rent check!" while squeezing a stress ball or stroking the cat or doing the samba or washing the dishes. This pushes the info into long-term memory. Easier to recall. 

Take really good care of yourself. Stay open honest and willing and continue to find out what helps you best. 

Life is a journey. Recovery, a path.

Pamus

well, I have PNES and it just started myself this february. But from what I have heard, it's from emotions and stress only. This sounds more like a trouble with the actual brain itself. I do have times when I have trouble talking or problems with my memory but that's about the extent of my problems besides the Grand-mals. My suggestion would to see a Psychologist as well. It might be more then seizures.

I hope you can get this under control as soon as possible. I wish you luck!!

chris....

Hi christine,

I was going after my Master's Degree in Psychology close to 30 years ago when course studies at Mental Health Clinics brought to my attention that there is very little valid and objective science involved in the Mental Health Sciences. In fact, I think E. Fuller Torrey hit the nail on the head in his book "The Mind Game" back in 1973 when he researched Witchdoctors and Psychiatrists, and found witchdoctors just as good, and often better, than psychiatrists. While he later tried to revise his stance by making the witchdoctors more of being just a straw-man proposal he could knock down with his later research and theories, by following the Scientific Method, his straw-man witchdoctors remain victorious.

Leaving the realm of the Scientific Method, and seeking protection only behind the drapes of sloppy statistical analysis, the differentiation between such things as Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and Psychogenic Nonepileptic Events (or whatever nicer name or acronym PNE or NES might decide to use) still often reveals the near nonsense used in the Mental Health Sciences.

The Abstract, and maybe some guest status access to their illustrations, of the journal article "A blinded pilot study of artwork in a comprehensive epilepsy center population" by Anschel DJ, Dolce S, Schwartzman A, Fisher RS, Epilepsy Behav. 2005 Mar;6(2):196-202, might be available at:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W...

or, at least the Abstract, at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15710304

Somehow, "an 80% positive predictive value for NES (versus true epileptic seizures) existed if subjects used 10 or more colors to draw their seizures." It also could be argued that studying art reduces the likelihood of developing epilepsy, but heaven help the person if they're an artist that develops epilepsy and they end up at a Mental Health Clinic that doesn't have up to par witchdoctors.

Tadzio

3Hours...

OK this makes me a little worried. I have been diagnossed with Epilepsy about 10 weeks ago had an EEG that came back came abnormal. After being placed on Keppra and depacote, hospitalized twice and still having 20 or more episodes per day, I was referred to an Epilesy Monitoring unit where I stayed for 3 days. I had several episodes but they were not recorded on the EEG. A psycologist came in and told it it was non-epileptic. I am an artist, going to school, and at this point I do not know who to believe. The unit did not pull me off of my Epilepsy meds because I was still having spells. I am following up with a psycologist next week.

cpartlvr

discussion/984014

Hi cpartlvr,

Doctors try to make the "best guess" decisions based on the available evidence, usually following some set of rules or guidelines. (The use of the word "protocol" in neurology is gaining strength again).

Despite the massive amount of statistical evidence indicating what it should be otherwise, psychogenic non-epileptic seizures have seemingly been promoted back up to being amongst the most early impairments to consider following the new guidelines in making "best guess" decisions in differentiating between epileptic and non-epileptic seizures (i.e., instead of doing deep-implanted electrode eegs (or other expensive tests), just try to call it psychogenic NES and see if it works out).

The biggest trouble with using the best guess of psychogenic NES, beyond the strong possibility of it being incorrect, is that psychiatric labels are very careless, gooey, and sticky, and once applied, nearly impossible to totally remove, and will be reapplied endlessly with slight variations at the slightest clue.

There are plenty of causes of NES besides those classified under the psychogenic category, and most NES do not pivotally involve causal psychiatry or psychology (it's just easiest for lazy doctors to blame everything on mental health problems). Painless migraines are distinguished from partial seizures usually only by the 5 minute rule.

One of my favorite books on epilepsy is "Imitators of Epilepsy" by Kaplan and Fisher (2005). At times "amazon.com" has it available with limited search in the "Look Inside" feature. Many university libraries have copies of the book, but the retail price of the book is usually above $100.00 now.

Previous posting: http://my.epilepsy.com/discussion/987531

Tadzio

3Hours...

I'm not to sure about anything when it comes to seizures, since I have only had mine for a very short time, not even a year. I was just going by what my Primary care doctor told me. And I've just started going to my therapist, so... But I understand. Sometimes I get these seizures and not once was I stressed or emotional disturbed. It's easy to put something into th list of emotional problems when they don't understand it fully.

Hmm that was intresting. Unfortunantly, I would have to get a login to see all of the first link.

chris....

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