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UPDATED: Sat, 09/06/2008 - 3:09pm
Mikey4
Deja vu and Epilepsy
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Ok I'm going to give a short version and a long version, as the long one might be too long for many...
SHORT:
-I'm 23, have had 5-6 deja vu episodes in 3-4 weeks. Daydream alot and have fleeting thoughts of normal things seeming weird or funny (but not necessarily unfamiliar). No family history, no grand mal, no head trauma. What's the likelihood of TLE? What else might it be?
LONG:
I'm 23 and have experienced five or six very strong feelings of deja vu in the last 3-4 weeks or so, which was enough to tip me off to possible temporal lobe epilepsy after searching around a bit. They generally last about 10-20 seconds and are not accompanied by the same dread, or stomach discomfort, or fear, or happiness that seems to be common with many TLE patients, but they're also momentarily quite strong (and frustrating!) for me.
I also have been having these thoughts every once in a while that ordinary things, objects, words, concepts, etc. (could be anything depending on the concept) seem somewhat silly or different than they normally would feel. In a way, I feel like I'm processing the world differently, almost a bit, yet not entirely, detached from it for just a few seconds or so. I'm not quite sure it's jamais vu since it's never had any sort of emotion or gut-type "feeling" that deja vu has, and I know what I'm looking at/touching/hearing/etc fine and not actually forgetting anything about it. As an example, it could be as trivial as say looking at a phone or hearing the word phone (or whatever else) and thinking "hm, what a funny thing with a funny name. never thought of a phone that way, i know it's a phone, but it seems kinda silly. kind of weird we use them" and then snap back into it and realize a phone is a phone and i've been using it and familiar with it my whole life. It feels like I'm a permanent stoner or something. Sorry if that sounds a bit nuts, just a quirky thing that I'm wondering if it's related to possible TLE or something else.
I also tend to have some issues fairly regularly with daydreaming or forgetting for a second what it was I was doing or wanted to do (momentary memory, basically), but I've always attributed that to lack of sleep, being a space cadet, or whatever else might cause it, and I'm not too sure if it's symptomatic of TLE.
In any case, I have never had head trauma, have no family history of epilepsy, and obviously never had a grand mal or anything like it. I saw a neuro who took history and notes before referring me to a specialist who's going to take a month to schedule an appointment and for an MRI in the meantime. He mentioned that there are psychological theories but no other neurological explanations aside from TLE to explain having 6 deja vus along with the other quirkiness. Obviously then, it would be frustrating if the MRIs and EEGs, etc all come back fine with no diagnosis made as I could be stuck with these spells (which are affecting my work right now).
That said, I'm wondering a few things:
1) What is the likelihood of TLE (given age, no family history or trauma, symptoms)? Also, what is the likelihood that someone non-TLE has 6 dejavu episodes in a 3-4 weeks timeframe?
2) What are potential alternative explanations if not TLE?
3) What can/will be done if everything comes back okay but I'm still having symptoms?
4) Would stress/lack of sleep cause the symptoms, or do they actually trigger the epilepsy which in turn triggers the symptoms?
Obviously any answers to any of the questions are much appreicated. Thanks and look forward to the discussion!
-Mikey
By Mikey4 at Sat, 09/06/2008 - 3:09pm | 72 views | 5 comments
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Recent Comments on this Discussion
What's the difference between epileptic déjà vus and regular déjà vus?
I mean people without epilepsy get déjà vus as well, so what's the difference between ours and theirs?
I feel I have a bunch of them and wonder if they're normal or not.
Mikey,
I have left TLE and mine started out as deja vu too, although I had deja vu so regularly (at least once a week, sometimes several times/day) I just figured that's how everybody was so I didn't even know how there was anything "up". That is until I had a generalized tonic-clonic (aka Grand mal) seizure at the age of 31 and ended up in the hospital.
All that said, I'd like to offer my take on your questions one at a time:
Q/A 1) Age doesn't matter. Adult onset of TLE is not rare. Family history doesn't matter either; there are very few types of epilepsy that are genetic.
As for the frequency of deja vu in non-epileptic patients, it's surprisingly tough to find info on, but when I researched it, I read that 70% of people report having deja vu at least once in their lives. It tends to start in the teenage years, peak in the 20s, and decline from there. Having deja vu 6-12 times per year in the 20s is normal, then more like 3-6 times/yr in the 30s, 1-3 in the 40s, and rarer from there. It's a little more common in women than in men.
Without telling them why, I separately quizzed my sister and brother about their deja vu occurences and found that my brother (44yrs) thinks he's had 6 episodes total in his life, and my sister (36yrs) reports about 3 times a year. Neither has ever had seizures.
So, yeah, your 6 times in 3-4 weeks is highly unusual.
Q/A 2) I dunno.
Q/A 3) My guess, if you talk to a good neurodoc or preferably an epileptologist, is that they might put you on a ridiculously low dose of Keppra (250mg 2xday) to start with, just to prevent a more serious seizure and see if the deja vus go away.
BTW, interesting fact about TLE in particular: 90% of people who have epileptiform spikes on their EEGs also show clinical signs of TLE (like your deja vus and swallowing, etc). However, the reverse isn't true; some folks with clinical TLE symptoms show no spikes on the EEG. And lots and lots of TLE patients have clear MRIs.
Q/A 4) Abso-freakin-lutely! Sleep deprivation is a huge trigger for seizure activity, whether it's simple partials like deja vu, or full blown loss-of-consciousness events.
On a personal note, as you mentioned that right now your work is being affected, I can share with you that when I started Keppra (after my Grand Mal Wake-up Call & diagnosis), I felt like my "old" brain was back, and I had missed it! I could think clearly again! I didn't find myself wondering what I was doing or why I was waiting for the stop sign (yes, sign) to turn green. My work was great, and my initial fears dissolved. I am 34 yrs old and an electrical engineer with a secure job.
So fret not, and continue educating yourself. If you do get on Keppra or any other AED, realize that you should be patient; it's gonna take 6 weeks or so before your brain is used to it. Lots of side effects will go away, and my neurologist says most people who get bad effects with Keppra just take it too fast. He started me on 250mg, then 500mg, then 750, and now I take 1g 2xday. That was over the course of 2 years--nice and slow. I now have deja vu episodes only about 2 x year, ringing in my ear about 6 x, and i have never had another grand mal.
Good luck!!
PS: I have an abnormal Left TL EEG, and a normal MRI, no history of trauma, no family history of epilepsy. My only increased risk factor was that I did have a couple of fever convulsions when I was less than 2 yrs old, but that's only a tiny risk increase. Go figure. 50% of TLE cases are "cryptogenic".
Have you read PROUST? His autobiographical novel illustrates deja vu with and with out the actual memories; deja vu like conditioned visceral sensations from environmental (and internal) stimuli without the associated memory(presently forgotten) gives mystical feelings seemingly beyond logic, as does TLE, and they both can work together to give quite strong cascading sensations reaching illusory divine levels. Sometimes this can be artificially induced during slight seizures with Pavlovian and/or operant conditioning.
Disruptions of rote associations of objects can be caused by TLE, though not as frequent for me, leading to thinking about things in a different or totally new manner, giving useful insights at times or just a sense of the silliness of the arbitrary nature of daily things. Such symptoms can also be the results of minor strokes, poisons, etc.
Trying to objectively and validly label feelings in TLE may well be impossible, and, for me, has caused much trouble with popcorn psychologist, to where now I frequently label my minor ictal sensations as adverse visceral sensations to try to preclude their careless invasive assumptions (I also studied the MMPI in college (avoid the MMPI like the plague in case you do have TLE; the MMPI sticky labels many TLEs as paranoid schizophrenia), and TLE strengthened my following Skinnerian Behaviourism).
One of my psych professors who told me that I aways amazed him by getting my fat head head through the doorway and complained of my verbosity (and gave me an A Plus for the course) led me to research the Geschwind Syndrome, and other usually rejected concepts as Forced Normalization, Kindling, TLE Personality, etc.; TLE Personality phenomena have generally been replaced with separate psychological diagnostics that only multiply problems with DSM cookbooks.
The books I am studying now are The Epilepsies by Panayiotopoulos, Imitators Of Epilepsy by Kaplan/Fisher, Limbic Seizures In Children by Avanzini/Mira Chapter 19; I think they are listed on Amazon.com; and, I am reading a critical study of and with The Idiot by Dostoevsky. These books answer many usual and unusual questions about epilepsy, especially TLE, and are fairly recent; Dostoevsky is from the 19th century, but his works are classics, especially with epilepsy.
Good Luck!
a lot of what you described sounds like tle. a lot of it, besides the tle stuff, sounds like ADHD, which could be a psychological thing that the dr. was thinking of. depression, too, can look like ADHD. It's possible that you have a nice mix, too. You have an interesting brain :)
peace :)
Hello,
My name is Amy age 24 and I have some of the same symptoms. I was diagnosed with Left Temporal Lobe Epilepsy about 7-8 years ago. When I have episodes I have some of the symptoms you have explained. Mine usually start with a wierd feeling in my stomach, I also find myself swallowing and then have the deja vu. Its usually last approx. 15-30 seconds. It's hard to explain my deja vu, when I have episodes (seizures) I always have the same deja vu but I quickly forget what it was. I always get asked what was your deja vu and I just can't talk about it because I don't remember - it's wierd. I also find my self with memory issues. All of those symptoms affect me while at work.
It really sounds like you may have TLE. But there are alot of different types of seizures it's possible that it could be coming from somewhere else.
Maybe you can get your MRI and EEG pretty soon. I know they are both annoying, and they can be very time consuming. But the MRI will definatly help you with alot your questions. And make sure you really like the neurologist that you are seeing, I believe that is very important.
I know for sure that lack of sleep can cause some episodes. I also know that stress and depressions can cause seizures. My doctor tells me since I have epilepsy he wants me to have more than 8 hours of sleep every night. So make sure you get enought sleep everynight.
I am not too sure what to tell you if your MRI or EEG comes back normal just don't give up. Maybe you need more tests, and need some blood work. Don't give up until they give you a proper diagnoses. If the MRI does come back abnormal make sure the doctor really explains what it means. And if they suggest medicine do some reseach of the medicine. I have tried so many different anit-seizure meds. Some just didn't work or gave me some bad side effects.
Hopefully you get some good answers soon. Make sure you get tests that the Dr. ordered. Take Care
Amy
abdancer1010@comcast.net