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UPDATED: Mon, 03/24/2008 - 6:46pm

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epi_help
epi_help

Resources for VNS Therapy

Hi everyone,

We had Dr. Steven Schachter join us this afternoon for a Question and Answer Chat on VNS Therapy. Here are a number of links to information on the site about VNS. I have also included a link to Cyberonics. Hope this helps!

Epi_help

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/vns

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/vns_what

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/vns_data

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/vns_other

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/vns_history

http://my.epilepsy.com/101/vns_therapy_101

http://my.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/travel_tips_vns_other_treatment

http://professionals.epilepsy.com/page/vagusnerve.html

http://www.vnstherapy.com/ (this takes you to Cyberonics, the company that makes the device)

 

Seizures and Teens: When medicines don’t work – Devices and Diet - http://my.epilepsy.com/pdfs/Except_parent_art9.pdf

 

 

By epi_help at Mon, 03/24/2008 - 6:46pm | 390 views | 26 comments
help, chat, VNS

Recent Comments on this Discussion

This topic has certainly generated lots of information, experiences, and passion. It's important to share perceptions but let's avoid personal attacks.  

Epi_help

Resource Specialist

epi_help

dear epi_help,

yes it is a very passionate topic and will remain so. we with the vns have it because it is our last hope of a normal life and to stay out of the ers and hospital rooms. want to see my medical bills from last year alone? scary and i have insurance, if i didnt i would be living under a bridge by now. i agree on the personal attacks but what i dont agree on is some one advertising their own website on e.com with information that doesnt agree with epilepsy.com website which has medical staff to back up everything. we depend on you to take care of giving us the best possible info when our doctors offices are closed, when a question passes our minds. we need real info, not an ad by someone who is not a doctor nor has doctors on his staff on his website to back up his info. my only request is that anyone should not be able to advertise any other website on e.com for their own websie to give unsuspecting people, ecspecially new people to epilepsy to give them misinformation. their neuros or epitologists are their main point of info for their course of treatment, and we will share our experiences with different drugs, or experiences like vns but let them know that their doc is the one to talk to about this. knowledge is power. i was told i made my decision for my vns by reading my forums on vns. this is far from the truth. i used that as info to give me a better perspective on it thru others experiences, good and bad. thats what these forums are for, right? if not, why do we have them?

the vns has already reduced my tonic clonic so i can leave the house without fear of having one everytime i step out the door to go shopping. it is a God send. the way i look at it, if you dont have personal experience with something then dont talk about it. this person does not and that is where the passion came in. you can not judge a medical devise for epilepsy when you have no experience with it . my hubby could, he lives with me, and he thanks God every day for getting his wife back after a 5 year battle with uncontrolable siezures.

we with long term epilepsy do our best to share our knowledge with people new to epilepsy. i am almost 50 and have had it all my life. it is genetic but the siezures have changed over the years. in types and controled to uncontroled  shortly to controled to now uncontroled for long term, still uncontroled but tcs are so much better. so yes i do take offence to people whose own website talks about driving when siezures are not controled and giving info about how to control siezures with other methods their doctors should discuss methods not a none medical website, and then call it educating. thank you for your understanding in this topic in advance. 

 God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

Dear Banffgirl,

 

The first and most important point is that I’m extremely happy for you to be reading that you’ve obtained some efficacy and relief from your illness. Ideally one would like to achieve complete control, stability and continuous long-term remission with or without the use of adjunctive therapies. Whether this is possible or not is secondary to the fact that you’ve indicated benefits.

 

What are also important along with patient education are my personal beliefs and efforts to encourage hope and persistence in others to not give in or give up.

Unlike some website administrators who persist in fear mongering I have attempted to factually, calmly and unemotionally share my personal experiences, collaborations, research and readings that I’ve accumulated as a support person and caregiver to my spouse as it specifically pertains to VNS Therapy. After some 37 years of our odyssey, the VNS Therapy has proven extremely effective in controlling my spouse’s depressive mood disorder and in her case with only some minor initial side-effects.

 

Unlike Birdbomb, I do believe Bernard’s efforts are sincere although misguided and biased on one particular topic. Quite frankly I too agree when first embarking on trying to overcome disorders such as Depression and Epilepsy a more natural holistic approach should in my opinion be considered before immediately venturing to medications and/or invasive treatment options. Bernard’s negativism toward VNS Therapy is in my opinion corrupted.

While I am not qualified to speak about Epilepsy my 45 years of experiences, research and knowledge qualifies me to discuss MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) knowledgeably and factually as it pertains to my spouse. Simply put, severe Depression is a killer and as Bernard likes to speak of “permanent consequences”; the permanent consequences of untreated severe Depression is oft times a “permanent death”.

 

So while my spouse has been through pharmacopeia of medications and therapies, each with their own particular or unique side-effects and in some cases life-threatening, I’ve shared those experiences calmly and factually without any need for alarmism or fear mongering with my understanding and knowledge that others utilizing the very same medications and/or therapies have benefited.

Once again, I endorse patient education and I encourage hope and persistence.

I do hope you continue to steadily improve and achieve the wellness and quality of life you would wish for yourself and others.

Warmly,

Herb

 

"What we have done forourselves alone dies with us;

what we have done forothers and the world remainsand is immortal" - Albert Pike

Herb

The /vns_what page sure does paint a rosy picture of the VNS, but does not give a complete picture IMO. A few comments:

The section under "Does it really work?" claims up to 60% efficacy. Cyberonics claims a peak of 43.7% efficacy at 2 years and then a decline in efficacy after that (from their own studies):

The There must be some bad side effects! section completely glosses over the numerous serious risks involved with the device (as listed in the VNS Physician's Manual). Spend a bit of time reading at the VNS Message Board for first hand experiences with the system to get an idea of the real life problems that patients are struggling with when the VNS causes problems. They may not be typical, but they are severe and life threatening in many cases.

The VNS has permanent consequences once implanted. For example, BirdBomb, the admin of the VNS Message Board, cannot get an MRI done on her neck area to check for a non-VNS related problem. She had the VNS turned off and the generator explanted, but they won't remove the coils from the Vagus nerve because it's too dangerous with all the scar tissue from the implant surgery.

There are some other, safer alternatives to the VNS (LGIT, Modified Atkins or Ketogenic diets, Neurobehavioral Therapy, EEG neurofeedback) that have been studied and shown to have a higher efficacy rate than the VNS. They should be presented as an option before the VNS IMO. At least they don't have permanent consequences!

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bernar...

The information about VNS on this site is referenced when giving statistics about published studies or other sources noted where appropriate. Additionally, people are referred to detailed information about safety issues and more details on VNS use to the patient manual on VNS.  I encourage everyone to share the information they read about any treatment, from this site or others, with their own treating doctors.

People are always encouraged to consider all options but to do so with the doctors who are treating them and who can have a knowledgeable discussion with them on the pros and cons of all treatment options, including the data that supports them.

Epi_help

epi_help

JUST TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. DOES THIS MEAN YOU APPROVE OF BERNARD USING THIS WEBSITE TO ADVERTISE HIS OWN WEBSITE? EPILEPSY.COM AND EPILEPSY FOUNDATION ARE LEGITAMITE WEBSITES. FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND HEARD, I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY . YOU CANT GIVE INFO ON YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES IF YOU HAVE NEVER USED A MED OR VNS. THE REST IS COMMON SENSE, WHERE HIS SITE DOES SAY HIS WIFE DROVE WHILE STILL HER SIEZURES WERE NOT CONTROLED

IF THIS IS INFO YOU WANT TO SHARE WITH ALL THE PEOPLE ON THIS SITE, I FIND THIS VERY SAD. WE RELY ON YOU FOR PROTECTING US FROM FALSE INFO. HAVE YOU EVER READ ANYTHING ON HIS SITE? PEOPLE NEED TO JUST READ E.COM FOR ALL THE INFO THEY NEED. BERNARDS AD NEEDS TO GO!

 

God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

Dear Banffgirl,

I am going to have to disagree with you on a couple of your points.

“YOU CANT GIVE INFO ON YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES IF YOU HAVE NEVER USED A MED OR VNS.” --- Banffgirl

Like Bernard, I too am a very long-time, reasonably educated and devoted support person to my spouse. In fact I also shall go so far as to state I am the most experienced lay-depression expert as it relates to my spouse and her case history. There are no medical professionals who attend to my spouse who know more about her depressive mood disorder than I and it is with my careful observations and empiracle record keeping for some 45 years that I have obtained the trust and understanding of her attending physicians and researchers to listen carefully to my input and thoughts as it pertains to my spouse’s care.

This is not to state that I do as I please or exhibit any arrogance. To the contrary, I’ve through the years collaborated and consulted with her attending physicians and researchers to present my observations and information and to gather their expert knowledge and opinions but always the reasonably educated and final determination is made by my spouse and me.

In my opinion, one need not have “USED A MED OR VNS” to be knowledgeable of the therapy but I do often state when sharing my opinions and/or information that I am a support person and caregiver so that the reader can understand some of my qualifications. Through the years I’ve read similar type statements being derrogatorilly also directed toward physicians which again, in my opinion, is often unwarranted.

I seldom address issues relating to Epilepsy simply because I lack the knowledge but I do discuss the VNS Therapy especially as it relates to Depression because I am a knowledgeable support person to a former VNS Therapy study subject for Depression who is now a patient of about 9 years utilizing VNS Therapy. In addition, through those years I have also been collaborating with a number of the leading VNS researchers, study subjects and patients as well as my extensive readings and research on the subject matter both pro and con. I established a website and message forum a number of years ago which I utilize as a repository for the information I’ve garnered in an unbiased manner to share with others who may have interest in VNS Therapy as the subject matter. I also established the site as the original Cyberonics message forum was shut down and which I previously discussed in a posting. The information gleaned from the partipicants was invaluable. Even more so, those patients and support persons reporting the side-effects and negative events of the therapy proved for me of even greater value.

Shortly thereafter, Mrs. Donna Baum (aka Birdbomb, Headcheese, VNS Guru, etc) opened her message forum to which she sought me out and contacted me asking me to participate as a moderator on her forum which now brings me to websites, message forums and site administrators.

My participation on Birdbomb’s forum was short lived as I was excommunicated for disagreeing with her biased position, constant dissemination of misinformation and the lack of a balanced perspective. Other former participants were also excommunicated for similarly disagreeing with her opinions or for having any affiliation and/or mention of my name or website to which she also monitored and censured the private messaging system on her site. So much for site administrators and there supposed sharing of information.

“WE RELY ON YOU FOR PROTECTING US FROM FALSE INFO. “ --- Banffgirl

In my opinion, it is encumbent upon the reader (patient) to investigate and understand any and all information obtained from any website or elsewhere and then to discuss with one’s attending licensed and knowledgeable healthcare professional before making any medical decisions. There are many, many questionable websites and site administrators utilizing these sites as a means of communication to promote their own biased opinions and/or positions on various subjects for whatever undisclosed reasons. I can also state that even some websites presented by legitimate medical professionals, facilities and/or institutions that I have read leave me questioning some of their presentations simply because I am better informed on certain medical matters than the average individual browsing the web (ie. The questionable efficacy and side-effects of certain psychotropic medications as well as improprieties and conflicts of self-interest of medical professionals).

I would not like to see Bernard, me or others exempted and/or silenced from sharing our thoughts on any message forum as I am also strongly an advocate for freedom of speech.

What I believe is appropriate, even when reading and researching what one considers a trustworthy website:

Caveat emptor --- "Let the buyer beware".

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

Herb

herb, as a spouse of someone with a vns, you are experienced about the vns, very personally, i might add, as is my husband. it is people who dont have one or doesnt have a spouse or child with one, that shouldnt speak badly about or talk about a med or vns that they have no personal experience with.thats what our forums are for, to share our person experiences. i hope that clears that up.

 

God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

The information about VNS on this site is referenced when giving statistics about published studies or other sources noted where appropriate. Additionally, people are referred to detailed information about safety issues and more details on VNS use to the patient manual on VNS.  I encourage everyone to share the information they read about any treatment, from this site or others, with their own treating doctors.

People are always encouraged to consider all options but to do so with the doctors who are treating them and who can have a knowledgeable discussion with them on the pros and cons of all treatment options, including the data that supports them.

Epi_help

epi_help

Thanks for responding but I think some of your information is not correct. There are many alternative therapies, as well as new therapies being looked at. However, some of the therapies you list have not undergone the same type of scientific study. Any treatment, including alternative therapies, may have side effects. That's why it's important for people to do their homework and make sure they ask specific questions of their treatment team to hear the pros and cons of each option. With the VNS, while there may be safety concerns, as with any device, these are well known ahead of time and people should read the patient manual before getting the device implanted. 

Epi_help

epi_help

If you can show me where any information I posted is incorrect, I would be happy to correct it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Check out my chart of alternative epilepsy treatments.

bernar...

bernard,

i haVe read your postings for a year now and over and over you always say "CHECK OUT MY CHART OF ALTERNATIVE EPILEPSY TREATMENTS"   MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHERE IS YOUR MEDICAL DEGREE?

I READ YOUR RESPONSES AND THEN THAT PHRASE AND ITS LIKE AN ADVERTISEMENT!!!! I REALLY WANT TO SEE YOUR MEDICAL DEGREE STATING THAT YOU ARE A NEUROLOGIST AND HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND RIGHT TO BE GIVING OUT INFO TO NONSUSPECTING PEOPLE ON ALTERNATIVE EPILEPSY TREATMENTS AS YOU PUT IT!

I KNOW YOU DONT HAVE E, FROM YOUR POSTINGS, THE REST OF US HERE ARE TRYING TO SHARE OUR OWN EXPERIENCES AND TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER. OUR EPITOLOGISTS ARE THE ONES WHO WE MAKE DICISIONS WITH ON MEDS AND OUR COURSE OF ACTION TO GET OUR SEIZURES UNDER CONTROL. I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO GOT VNS IMPLANTS THAT ARE VERY HAPPY WITH THEM, ONE PERSON FOR 10 YRS.  AND YES THERE ARE SOME OUT THERE THAT ARENT. LOOK AT THE MEDS, SAME THING, SOME ARE HAPPY WITH ONE MED, ANOTHER PERSON ISNT. AS FOR THE VNS THOUGH, IT BEING A MECHANICAL DEVICE, AND IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOUR BODY REACTS TO IT, WELL YOU HAVE TO TRY IT TO KNOW, AND IF YOU ARE UNCONTROLABLE, YOU TRY IT. ITS BETTER THAN DYING FROM SUDEP, DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT IS?

YOU CAN TAKE ANYTHING THAT PEOPLE PURCHASE AND USE, I DONT CARE IF ITS MEDICAL OR NOT. YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE SOME PEOPLE SAYING THE PRODUCT IS GREAT, SOME SAYING ITS GOOD, SOME SAYING ITS FAIR, SOME SAYING ITS HORRIBLE. DOESNT MATTER WHAT IT IS. READ REVIEWS ON ANYTHING, NO ONE AGREES ON EVERYTHING.

ALL I CAN SAY IS I HAVE REACHED THE END OF MY ROPE AND CANT STAND TO READ ONE MORE AD FOR YOUR ALTERNATIVE TREATMENTS UNLESS YOU PROVE YOU ARE A DOCTOR.

 

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

Comment inadvertently placed in wrong position...see below.

Herb

herb,

you have no idea how much your wise words meant to me. i have felt i was the only one out here who could see what bernard was doing over the last year. i just finally had enough and had to speak my mind. since i have gotten my vns implant i have been taken off antidepressants that i was taking on and off for the last 30 years. so it definitely helped me there. i have notice a decrease in siezures. i was having 8-12 tonic clonic siezures a week, so to be completely uncontrolable to this, i am so greatful of my vns.

education is always important, but bernard gives misinformation. his anger towards me is probably due to the fact that i didnt agree with him and i called him on his misrepresentaion of himself. i myself am like you. i want people to know the truth, advocate towards proper knowledge. if you read my postings, you will see i am always wanting people to know about epilepsy. i wrote a forum on respecting your epilepsy. this one bernard would probably not like because it has something about not driving etc. when uncontroled.

you are welcome to go thru and read any of my postings as i try to give real info not bias info to others on this site.

God Bless you herb,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

Your hostility towards me is really unwarranted. I don't have epilepsy nor am I a doctor and I have never represented myself as having or being either one. My wife has epilepsy and we have shared our story for anyone to see.

You don't have to have a degree to share information and that's all I'm doing - same as any other member of this or any other E forum.

The line about the chart is called a signature. Heck yes I'm trying to educate people about options. I don't see why you take umbrage to it. Education is a good thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bernar...

it is not hostility, it is plain fact. your chart doesnt have the same info as does the one on this website. I TRUST THE FACTS ON THIS WEBSITE, YOURS I DONT, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE, you also state "VNS THERAPY IS A CRUDE FORM OF EEG NEUROFEEDBACK" the one thing you dont bother to mention is THIS IS YOUR OPINION ONLY, NOT FACT!!!! neurofeedback is mostly used for depression and a few other ailments BUT NOT FOR MOST TYPES OF EPILEPSY!!!!!! SO I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOUR MISINFORMATION !!!!!!! i have looked at your website and there are no doctors or medical facts to back up any of your statistics. what you have is a statement here and there from different medical papers but nothing on where you get your stats from. THE VERY STATEMENT YOU MADE ABOUT THE VNS BEING A CRUDE FORM OF EEG NEUROFEEDBACK WHEN IT IS JUST YOUR OPINION AND YOU ARE PUTTING THE INFO ON A EPILEPSY WEBSITE SHOWS YOU ARE MISGUIDING OR MISINFORMING PEOPLE WITH EPILEPSY.  

ON THE CYBERTRONICS WEBSITE IT EVEN TALKS ABOUT CONTROLING SIEZURES WITH DIET, ETC. SO THEY ARENT SAYING THEIRS IS THE ONLY ANSWER. BUT IT IS THERE FOR PEOPLE WHO NEED IT AND IT DOES WORK ON A PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE, NO FIGURES ARE POSTED LIKE YOU GAVE THOUGH.  LIKE I TOLD YOU BEFORE, NOTHING WORKS FOR EVERYBODY. EVEN ON SIEZURE MEDS, IF WE READ ALL THE WARNINGS FIRST, WE WOULDNT WANT TO TAKE THEM EITHER. BUT SUDEP IS MUCH SCARIER THEN ANY RISKS WITH THE VNS. AT LEAST WITH IT, YOU CAN LOWER YOUR MEDS AND GET YOUR SIEZURES UNDER CONTROL INSTEAD OF SPENDING HALF YOUR LIFE IN THE ER. PLUS YOU SAVE YOUR LIVER AND KIDNEYS A LOT OF STRESS!!!

YOU CALL THE LINE A SIGNATURE BUT IT IS AN AD FOR YOUR WEBSITE THAT HAS NO MEDICAL FACTS TO BACK THE STATS ON YOUR HOME PAGE OR ANYTHING ON IT. IF I WANT MEDICAL FACTS, EPILEPSY.COM IS A FOUNTAIN OF INFORMATION WHEN I CANT TALK TO MY DOCTOR AFTER HOURS. OTHERWISE I JUST TALK WITH MY DOCTOR ABOUT ANYTHING I NEED TO KNOW. HE IS ALWAYS A CALL AWAY AND RETURNS CALLS PROMPTLY.

YOU ALSO HAVE ON YOUR WEBSITE THAT FORTUNATELY YOUR WIFE DIDNT HAVE SIEZURES WHILE CONCENTRATING ON SOMETHING LIKE DRIVING A CAR. WELL, DRIVING IS SOMETHING WE ARE TRYING HARD TO EDUCATE PEOPLE NOT TO DO WHEN THEIR SEIZURES ARE NOT UNDER CONTROL. SO IF THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL EDUCATION, YOU ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION MY FRIEND. YOU SAY EDUCATION IS A GOOD THING, THEN PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH. THE REST OF US WAIT FOR PEOPLE TO DRIVE US WHERE WE NEED TO GO. A PAIN, YES, BUT SAFETY FIRST. THATS EDUCATING!!!!!!

SO YOU MAY CALL IT EDUCATION, I CALL IT MISGUIDING OR MISINFORMING ECSPECIALLY THE NEW PEOPLE TO THIS SITE.

 

God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

If I misunderstood the use of emphasis and all caps in your posts as angry "shouting", I apologize. It does appear to me that you are hostile/angry. As such, I am limiting my response to you because upsetting people really isn't something I endeavor to do.

The fact that my chart lists information different from this site was the whole point of my initial post here. The information on my chart comes straight from Cyberonics. You can choose to believe/trust whatever you like.

I didn't make a statement about the VNS being a crude form of neurofeedback. I asked a question and linked to a page where I discussed my thoughts on an article that was published. If you have another opinion on the mechanism by which the VNS is achieving it's results, I'd encourage you to share them.

You made a choice to get the VNS and have a lot invested in that decision. I understand your defensiveness on the subject, but it doesn't make it right for you to attack me personally just because I see it in a different light.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bernar...

caps were not used throughout the entire posting, they were used to make sure unsuspecting people were aware that the opinion is yours not fact. caps use is not yelling, it is to make words stand out from others. you obviously are anti vns which you can be if you want but dont spread your gloom and doom on this website. there are lots of people on this website that have had good results and are very happy with the vns. if you really understood how the brain functions you would know that it is strictly trial and error on what works for each individual.

you said your statement was a question on" IS VNS A CRUDE FORM OF BIOFEEDBACK?" to keep the record straight bernard, i did go to that website before i wrote my response previously and it was 9 people studied, all about depression, NOT EPILEPSY!!!!!!!!!

i do believe this is an epilepsy website, if you dont agree with vns, keep it to yourself, you have no personal knowledge of it, your wife has never had a vns. you have no medical degree and all your info is hearsay.

read the response that epi help sent you on your info stating that some of your information is not correct. plus saying some of the therapies you list have not undergone the same type of scientific study. leave the course of action for epileptics up to the patient and the doctor.

when someone writes on a forum, they want peoples personal experiences and knowledge NOT a bias view from someone who is just against a treatment without personal knowledge. i did my research, i talked to people that had vns implants which i had a post on the forums as well from people i meet here on e.com. some people didnt have good experiences, but some did. read the meds forums same thing. and as i pointed out 2 things  to you, which you never responded to, there is sudep to worry about. plus you had no problem letting your wife drive with siezures not controled. 

you pick one thing that you have no personal experience with and that is your pet peeve, fueled by one person you know who had a bad experience that you meet on the internet. well that is not education. do us all a favor and stay off the forums when it comes to vns.  

and by the way, me and my vns are doing just fine, thank you for asking!!!!!!

 

 God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

... if you dont agree with vns, keep it to yourself, ...

Should I lecture you that if you don't agree with me, keep it to yourself? *Sigh*

Re: the article - the mechanism by which the VNS works is unknown for both epilepsy and depression. That is the first article I have found anywhere discussing research into the modus operandi (for either condition). Seeing as how the entire basis for the application of the VNS for depression stemmed from reports of altered moods coming from epilepsy patients, I think it likely has a lot of relevance to anyone using the VNS. It's cool if you disagree though.

... leave the course of action for epileptics up to the patient and the doctor ...

I am not playing doctor. Your veiled implication is repugnant - especially in light of the fact that you solicited opinions from people on forums when trying to decide whether or not to get your own VNS.

Your comment about SUDEP has no relevance to anything that I have posted here - I have never advocated anyone to do anything one way or the other to put themselves at increased risk of SUDEP as you intimated. Similarly, your attempts at ad hominem attacks on my character are not worth acknowledging. I'm happy to discuss facts about the VNS if you wish.

I have responded to epi_help's broad brush statement and await further clarification. I'd like to know what exactly I presented in the chart that he thinks is incorrect (which is not the same as a difference of opinion). Cyberonics will likely be surprised to hear they posted incorrect statements too.

I have addressed the separate topic of the studies done for both the VNS and EEG neurofeedback quite extensively in the CWE forums. The differences are not unknown to me. I don't believe (<== indicates this is a statement of opinion) that they are as significant as *some* doctors like to portray them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bernar...

bernard the same goes for you and your opinion,

IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH VNS TREATMENT KEEP IT TO YOURSELF!!!!!!!

YOU STATED: I am not playing doctor. Your veiled implication is repugnant - especially in light of the fact that you solicited opinions from people on forums when trying to decide whether or not to get your own VNS.

ok bernard, that is what forums are for, to find out what others experiences with the vns or drug or whatever it is you need others person imput on . so you mock me because i asked people about their personal experiences. so does that mean all these people asking questions on the forum are repugnant to you? just because we ask each other questions? we dont ask for medical advise, we ask for personal experiences, you have no personal experience with the VNS so lay off! i didnt make my decision lightly, i listened to what people said, good and bad, i listened to my doctor, i looked at my siezure history which isnt pretty, i talked to people i know personally that have them, i talked to my hubby, i talked to God a lot about it. and in the end, i decided it was the best course of action for me. its called gathering information and discussing it with those who care.

 

you state SUDEP has no relavence? come out of your little corner and come into the real world. SUDEP does have a lot of relavence to all of this. BELOW ARE 2 ARTICLES OF FACT FROM EPILEPSY .COM, THEY ARE WHY SUDEP HAS RELAVENCE. VNS IS AN OPTION FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT HERE IN THESE ARTICLES. YOUR WHOLE ATTITUDE TOWARDS EPILEPSY IS DISGUSTING AND YOU STILL HAVENT EXPLAINED WHY ITS OK FOR YOUR WIFE TO DRIVE WHILE HER SIEZURES WERE NOT CONTROLED. VERY CONVENIENTLY LEFT OFF YOUR REBUTALS.

COMMUNICATING THE RISKS:

Telling persons with epilepsy and their family members about SUDEP is similar to the wise ferry captain coaching the passenger. The captain does not avoid discussing death – the risk is obvious to everyone. What the captain does is reassuring and useful. He focuses his message upon providing the passenger with the practical skills the passenger needs to have the best opportunity to preserve his life.

We have advantage over the captain regarding SUDEP. The crisis has not occurred yet, so the conversation can (and must) begin with specific positive steps persons with epilepsy and their families can take to improve their overall outcomes. These would include explaining how medications work, their behavior in the bloodstream, therapeutic ranges, and the challenges to be faced in maintaining proper blood levels day in and day out. These include talking about first aid, about how lifestyle habits can improve the chance of seizure control, and the importance of identifying and avoiding seizure triggers. These include the unambiguous goal of good seizure control, with a clear plan for further diagnostic workups and/or treatment changes if current efforts are not successful. These include educating the person about medication side-effects and how to recognise toxicity so these can be reported – and especially so these do not cause poor compliance.

Once patients and families possess the knowledge and skills they need to help protect life, then the physician is in the ideal position to introduce SUDEP as constructive therapy. SUDEP provides the physician with a compelling opportunity to illustrate why proper medical self-management skills are so valuable to the person and family. While these skills are designed to prevent seizures, they also afford important protections against more rare and serious complications in epilepsy, including SUDEP and status. The take home message, ‘Practising these skills daily can reduce your risk of harm from epilepsy. That puts your future in your control.’

So what does this mean for real world medical practices? First, patient and families can handle the discussion of SUDEP and other epilepsy risks when presented properly. Second, the discussion of SUDEP must be preceded by a boatload of patient and family education that provides the knowledge and practical skills needed. This understanding allows them to cope medically and psychologically with the knowledge of SUDEP. Third, knowing epilepsy carries risk is what cements patient and family skills into daily practice and insures better therapeutic outcomes. Finally, the time required to teach every family is not practical for the physician. Specially trained support personnel, such as nurses, health educators, and epilepsy association staff are the key to providing this care. Add them to your practice.

Written By: Robert J Mittan, Ph.D.
Seizures & Epilepsy Education (S.E.E.)
Catalina Rofloc Mittan, Former Executive Director,
Los Angeles County Epilepsy Society

 WHO IS AT RISK:

A systematic review was performed to provide evidence-based estimates about risk factors and incidence of SUDEP (Tellez-Zenteno, Ronquillo & Wiebe 2005). We searched Index Medicus, Medline, EMBASE, and the Cochrane database, for retrospective or prospective cohort and case-control English language studies exploring the risk factors and incidence of SUDEP in adults and children from 1966 to 2003. Of 83 potentially eligible articles 36 fulfilled eligibility criteria (29 cohort and 8 case-control studies). Salient findings follow:

Researchers do not use standard definitions of SUDEP. Standard definitions are essential for meaningful communication about clinical conditions. Some authors did not state a definition, some crafted their own, and others adhered to published definitions. A definition of SUDEP was explicit in 65% of studies, not clear in 29%, and not given in 6%. In many studies, the diagnosis of SUDEP was probable, not definite, because the most used definitions require post mortem data, and autopsies are performed infrequently in many settings. This suggests that the requirement of post mortem examination for a definitive SUDEP diagnosis may require revision. Specifically, how much certainty and precision does the post mortem examination add to the diagnosis of SUDEP?

The risk factors for SUDEP depend on the type of comparison. Studies exploring risk factors use one of two main comparison groups, i.e. non-SUDEP epilepsy deaths, and live people with epilepsy (PWE). Comparisons with non-SUDEP deaths explore best the circumstances surrounding death (e.g. seizures preceding death, place of death, AED levels at the time of death). Comparisons with live PWE explore best the lifestyle and clinical variables related to SUDEP (e.g. frequency of seizures, number of AEDs, use of other drugs). Therefore, the seemingly disparate risk factors found in these studies are really complementary.

High-risk and low-risk groups for SUDEP are identified. The risk of SUDEP is expressed as number of deaths per 1000 person-years. The risk is highest in studies of candidates for epilepsy surgery and epilepsy referral centres (2.2 to 10 per 1000), intermediate in studies including patients with mental retardation (3.4 to 3.6 per 1000), and lowest in children (0 to 0.2 per 1000). The incidence was similar in autopsy series (0.35 to 2.5 per 1000) and in studies of epilepsy patients in the general population (0 to 1.35 per 1000). PWE in the high-risk group typically suffer from more severe epilepsy, have frequent seizures, and require many AEDs. These factors are consistently associated with SUDEP (Langan & Nashef 2003; Lhatoo & Sander 2002; Stollberger & Finsterer 2004). The reasons for a lower risk in children require further investigation.

The contribution of SUDEP to overall mortality varies by risk group. As expected, in higher-risk groups SUDEP is a more frequent cause of death than in lower-risk groups. In studies of children, general population, epilepsy registers and autopsy series, SUDEP explained from 0 to 14% of deaths. In studies of epilepsy clinics, drug trials, epilepsy surgery or surgical candidates, and registers of patients with refractory epilepsy SUDEP explained from 29 to 75% of deaths.

Several aspects of SUDEP require further research. Prospective studies from seizure monitoring units could be fruitful. Standardisation of case ascertainment, definitions, and description of population sources is necessary to improve the analysis and interpretation of data. International panels could review the SUDEP definition and scientific journals could encourage researchers to adhere to standard definitions. Finally, researchers need to assess the impact that learning about SUDEP has on patients and their families, while exploring optimum risk communication and coping strategies for this infrequent, but devastating event.

Written By: Jose F. T

 

banffgirl

 

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

ok bernard, that is what forums are for, to find out what others experiences with the vns or drug or whatever it is you need others person imput on .

I'm glad you agree. I'm providing my input. You have totally missed the point of what I wrote regarding SUDEP.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bernar...

VNS Message Board

Bernard speaks the truth.  Responsible marketing and truth in advertizing should include ethics, but alas, it does not.  Telling the whole story and NOT glossing over the negitive aspects helps people make an INFORMED decision.

If you choose VNS as a form of temporary (and it is nothing more than that, it does not cure) treatment for epilepsy or depression, you should have access to ALL the information, not just the shiney, new, happy poential promises.

 

 

birdbomb

yes it is very true they dont tell the whole story, it would be great if the books they give you after, are given to you before. that way it is easier to wiegh the pros and cons. though even after having a meltdown about having it put in, the thing is, when you take so many different meds over so many years and you are still not controled, i decided it was worth the risk. i havent had it long, just 7 weeks and there has been a slight decrease already. i am on a lot of meds which the goal is to cut them way down.  the meds can kill you or sudep which i have read extensively on. we are prime canidates for sudep. so yes there are risks, but any time you have even the simplest surgery there are risks, walking across the street, there are risks. i have finally come to terms with my decision thanks to vns board and reading it and talking to other friends who have one and its working well for them.

all we need to do now is get those books in the doctors offices for the people coming behind us!!!!!!!

God Bless,

banffgirl

life is fragile, handle with prayer.

banffgirl

Dear Banffgirl,

Bernard I believe in his own inevitable fashion tries to helpfully share information as a support person as best he can although in his case and in my opinion he sometimes reaches beyond that which he is knowledgeable as is in the instance of VNS Therapy (Vagus Nerve Stimulation).

He has been corrected in the past as it relates to his incorrect assumptions pertaining to VNS Therapy and his reaction and/or response to either being corrected or challenged is to similarly respond with statements such as “Your hostility towards me is really unwarranted.” Often lacking when corrected is a thank you or acknowledgement from him that his assumptions were wrong.

No, he is not a doctor and for whatever reason he also exhibits a negative leaning and somewhat alarmist attitude toward the VNS Therapy while at the same time heavily emphasizing his personal taste for EEG Neurofeedback. I certainly would not fault any patient for being educated and trying non-invasive therapy options first such as EEG Neurofeedback which is relatively expensive and often not covered by health insurance as well as the reality that Neurofeedback as well as dietary options and numerous drug regimens are simply not effective for some and as with many treatment regimens there are potentially serious side-effects (Neurofeedback excluded to my knowledge) and hence the need for continuing research and other options.

I was alerted to these postings by another individual who has no particular liking for the alarmist presentations, negativism as well as the continued dissemination of misinformation and allegations through the years often prevalent in the writings of “Birdbomb” and her cohorts as it relates to VNS Therapy. She has personally advocated for banning VNS Therapy for Depression patients and that is a subject that is intimately close to me personally and infringes upon my years of proactive mental health advocacy and activism.

What are needed in my opinion especially as it relates to Major Depressive Disorder are more therapy option choices to aid this particularly ill patient population.

As you stated “I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO GOT VNS IMPLANTS THAT ARE VERY HAPPY WITH THEM” and so do I. I am also aware and knowledgeable all do not benefit. What is needed and that which I additionally advocate for is the education of the patient to make informed and un-coerced medical decisions in collaboration with one’s caring, trusted, knowledgeable and licensed healthcare professional(s) and to understand that most all therapies, drugs, surgeries etc also come with potential side-effects and not to be unreasonably scared off or out of one’s wits through the ignorance and crudeness of the likes of “Birdbomb” and others whether it be VNS Therapy, brain surgery, drugs etc or as was the case of Birdbomb who based her decision for VNS Therapy upon a company representative's information as she related her story to me. Also of interest is the fact she also relates she doesn’t have Epilepsy.

My spouse is approaching 9 years since her implant for Depression. In her case the results have been nothing short of remarkable which once again brings me back to the continuing education of “Birdbomb”.

“If you choose VNS as a form of temporary (and it is nothing more than that, it does not cure) treatment for epilepsy or depression…” --- Birdbomb

Contrary to her above state and usual ignorance I’ve listed the definition for the word cure.

1. Restoration of health; recovery from disease. 2. A method or course of medical treatment used to restore health. 3. An agent, such as a drug, that restores health; a remedy. 4. Something that corrects or relieves a harmful or disturbing situation: The cats proved to be a good cure for our mouse problem. 5. Ecclesiastical Spiritual charge or care, as of a priest for a congregation. 6. The office or duties of a curate. 7. The act or process of preserving a product.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/20/C0812000.html

Warmly,
Herb
VNSdepression.com

"What we have done for
ourselves alone dies with us;
what we have done for
others and the world remains
and is immortal" - Albert Pike

Herb

VNS Message Board "If you are going through hell, keep going." (Sir Winston Churchill, 1874-1965)

You are such a liar Herb.

Oh look, now my cyberstalker is DIAGNOSING me!

birdbomb

To the readership,

 

I’ve taken the time and effort to once again debunk the proliferation and dissemination of misinformation posted to various forums in the writings of both Birdbomb and Bernard as it relates to VNS Therapy as illustrated in the following quotation and link.

 

“If I understood correctly, they are saying that the generator, which is supposed to be hermetically sealed, actually cracked/separated? That is scary.” --- Bernard

http://www.vnsdepression.com/pp10-010344-articles_2-19-08-Hardware-failure.htm  

Their continuing hearsay discussions peeked my curiosity and prompted my subsequent investigation and research which I’d like to share with this readership for informational and factual purposes in which I’ve tried to present a reasonable and rational understanding and conclusion.

  "And here is the rest of the story."

http://vnsdepression.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1353#1353

  

Warmly,

Herb

VNSdepression.com

 

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us;

what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal" - Albert Pike

Herb

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